Politics!
In honor of Election Day (November 4th), next Sunday's sermon will be about politics, which means that we will be discussing politics AND religion. Should be nice and controversial.
To get you all thinking about how Christians are called to relate to their country, here are two questions to stir things up:
1. Is "separation of church and state" a good thing or bad?
2. Should Christians vote? How do you justify your answer Biblically?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Pastor Josh
To get you all thinking about how Christians are called to relate to their country, here are two questions to stir things up:
1. Is "separation of church and state" a good thing or bad?
2. Should Christians vote? How do you justify your answer Biblically?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Pastor Josh
Posted by The Gathering Christian Church at 10/26/2008 2:58 PM 
Categories: Sermons, Discussion Question
Categories: Sermons, Discussion Question
Separation of church and state might have been a nothing. Unfortunately, the church messed it up. Unfortunate because of the embarrassment it should feel at its own role in this matter.
Here is the sitch. At the time of the writing of the Bill of rights (first 10 amendments to the constitution) several states had official state religions. Connecticut and Massachusetts for instance. Clearly not in violation as the bill of rights was originally intended to protect the states from the federal government. The idea being that the states could have official religions, but that the Federal Government could not force a religion on the states.
Then the church got greedy. In New Jersey, the church sought and secured bus transportation for students to and from private Christian schools at the taxpayers expense. In the landmark case of Everson vs. Board of Education, The Supreme Court of the US decided that the first Amendment by way of the fourteenth amendment (equal protection clause) applied to the states as well as the Federal Government.
So, until 1947, there was no separation of church and state.
That being said, I believe that this separation is a good thing. . .at least in this regard. I don't think that secular authorities have any business teaching or applying religious principles regardless of faith system.
In Utah or Idaho, Mormonism is a slam dunk for education and legal purposes without this protection.
In certain districts of Los Angeles county, Islam would receive similar support.
Religion is something that should be taught and cultivated at home and in the church -or mosque or synagogue- not at school or in a court of law.
Now understanding that, I believe that people of faith should pursue positions of public office. Biblical examples of this would be Moses (Gen 45:9) and Daniel (Dan 6:2). If it is acceptable to serve in secular government, then it is certainly acceptable to vote!
While Romans 13 does not deal directly with voting, it does describe our relationship to government. V. 7 suggests that Christians should participate in government: Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (13:7 ESV)
So, I'm going to hang my hat on this verse and vote!
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how about some thoughts on foundations...years ago an old YWAM friend gave us a quick teaching about what he believed was the founding fathers ideas on self-government. He told us that to ably govern a nation, a person would need to be able to govern himself. He claimed that the founding fathers established schools so that its citizens would be able to read the BOOK and in reading embrace its Truth and wisdom and govern themselves free from the devil’s rule.
Prior to that that I think that I must have believed that societies just evolved, just happened. I learned that our founding fathers were visionaries, and planners. Strong nations, and good values don’t just happen. Tyranny and cruelty don’t just happen.
I have always said, this nation started with people wanting to be free to follow God in their own way, and Mexico started with people wanting to conquer and gain wealth and power. And though America has had its shamefully misguided, and hideously wicked, selfish episodes (slavery, Mexican War, extortion against the native peoples), the God value and the Greed value set a pattern for each nation’s history.
What does this have to do with religion and politics? It is our values or beliefs that determine how we rule our spheres and what we require of leaders. Our personal values determine what we want our society to aspire to.
I am very guilty in my tendency to ignore politics. I usually end up voting against someone, rather than for someone. My other half is more strategic, he says that if we say no to both, someday someone will notice and make a change. But my faith says who I am, and that should be reflected in my attitude about politics.
But however we vote, let us not lose vision. Vision that we are to be part of something good, something noble, something that values caring and something that honors God. If not because we are Americans, because we are believers and God would have us carry His vision wherever we live.
And back to being part of a society. Many years ago when I had to face what it meant to be a nurse, I realized that I was not the only one who needed courage to take a risk of failure so that I could and maybe make a difference. Just start to consider the courage it takes to become a surgeon, a policeman, a fireman, a teacher. It takes courage to be a parent, not only because of the risk we take, but because of to what we aspire for our child….our vision that he or she will make a difference in our society.
I know it doesn't often feel like courage, to get up everyday and be obedient in the place where God put us...but we never know at which moment in our day to day we will be pushed to the extent of needing courage, of speaking truth, of fighting injustice, or perform a life saving act.
And so, I will pray for my nation as I make my marks on my ballot. I will try not to be cynical, and I will be grateful that I get to carry on the vision of a self-governed nation that calls itself free
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I think that the real definition of separation of church and state in today’s world means that the only church separated from the state is the Christian church. If you would define church as meaning religion you’d find that religion is everywhere in government. The religion of humanism, which purports to be anti religion although I don’t buy it, is everywhere in public schools and in the laws. New age thinking and ideas infiltrate our public system on so many levels that we have become desensitized and don’t even recognize it. My daughter brought home a book from the school library which describes in detail religious practices of Native Americans, but I am guessing if she looked for a Christian book in her library she’d be looking for a long time. Either that or she’d find one that embraces more of a Universalist theology, which if that’s the other option I’d rather her read the book about Native Americans. I don’t think the separation of church and state has been a good thing.
On the other hand it can be a good thing. A friend said just last night that this country has never been so ripe for harvest. There are so many people who are hungry for the Truth, who have become jaded by the empty religion of post-modernism and political correctness. There are so many people who are tired of going around in circles in the “religion” of Oprah. I am excited to see, whichever way this election goes, what God is going to be doing in the next few years.
With that being said, and I’m not sure if any particular point came across there, voting is absolutely an essential responsibility of God’s people! I was thinking of the same verses that Cecil said to back up my views. We have to remain standing for the people of God’s creation with no voice of their own. And yes I’m talking about unborn babies and I’m also talking about those children who are too far for us to hear their cries for mercy and justice. Weren’t we instructed to pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven?
I love the book of Jonah and our country really resembles the city of Nineveh. So, maybe we should take that as a clue to what we should be doing. Repenting through fasting and praying, giving up our worthless idols and turning back to the One who is the only sovereign authority over not only this country but this world.
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Jesus fought against the marriage of religion and government--the Pharisees and Sadducees in bed with the governors and Roman rulers of their day, contaminating the very essence of God's laws with the power and corruption of government.
Our founding fathers, the true Daniels of their time, fled a country steeped in the marriage of government and religion and sought to create a government that would withstand the pressures of religion and tyranny and ensure freedom to ALL members of society.
This fight has not always been effective, as evidenced by the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem witch hunt, but now, we seem to have swung the other way on this pendulum, facing a seemingly godless government, pulling farther and farther away from the heart of our Father in Heaven.
It's my feeling that the separation of church and state is something to be supported, but as Cecil explained, believers should seek public positions to help govern policies that affect those the Lord cares about. (Ps. 68:5)
This leads to the voting issue:
Voting is a choice in this country just like many of our freedoms are a choice. The truth is, I haven't voted since I was 18 and made my "informed" decision to vote for a man who trampled on my morals, all the while claiming to follow my Lord as Savior. I was disgusted and heartbroken and have been gunshy about the whole process ever since. I chose Romans 16 to support my choice--separation of politics and religion in my own life. I stuck my head in the sand for awhile, and the Lord did not push on me to pull my head out of the sand until recent years. Since then, I have honestly tried to vote and have some funny stories about that, but up until this year have been unsuccessful.
This year I am determined that my vote will count. Additionally, I have spoken up in situations where I would have otherwise kept quiet, and I have prayed my guts out for the Lord to spare our country and to wake his people up to be about his business, particularly as it relates to this election.
The Scriptures that I've found do not actually speak to voting, but they do call us to pray. That is our most formidable weapon against the principalities and powers that seem to be so prevalant in politics these days.
2 Chron. 7:14
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
Matt. 5:44
"Pray for those who persecute you."
2 Tim. 2:1-4
"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to aknowledge of the truth.
Your vote most definitely counts, but your prayers count more.
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So I tried to post a comment here however someone limited the posts to 3,000 characters...now I asked does anyone think I can be limited to that small number??
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I read your my space blurb, and I just wanted to say thank you for the time and energy you put into this subject. I agree with you even if I don't have the energy to pursue it at this time :o)
Love ya,
Melanie
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I just noticed that you want people to "vote" on your article about voting. Ironic.
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